Is it rape if...?

[Susan]

Yes, you can be raped by your spouse. Sounds like you were saying no by trying to get up and get away? You are not able to consent if drunk or under the influence of drugs. Our bodies don't know the difference between good or bad touch - they respond to stimulation so orgasms are possible during rape. I'm sorry he doesn't show you the respect you deserve! I suggest you try explaining how it makes you feel when he does this while your drunk. If he's been supportive of your healing from CSA then he should be able to understand. Sending you strength and much care!

[3kidsandaheadache]

On 6/12/2017 at 8:51 AM, glitterandcupcakes said:

I am not arguing I seriously need to know, how is it rape of you say yes but don't really want to because they manipulate, nag, coerce, make you feel it's your duty?

 

According to my Google search result (I can't figure out what the actual url is), one definition for *force* is "coercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence." Imagine if you were fighting a person off and they keep fighting until you are too tired to fight anymore; that is force. If someone works at you over and over until you finally give in because you can't fight it anymore, that is force too. I had a boyfriend in high school who nagged and nagged me. Looking back I am surprised that I got up and left instead of giving in. It was probably because we had only been dating a few weeks and I didn't feel invested in the relationship. I did sit in his living room and fall asleep and then pretend to be asleep when he started touching me in an intimate way. I moved so that he removed his hands but I was too scared to get up and leave or tell him to stop touching me. Anyway, the truth about manipulation and coercion was hard for me grasp at first. We are inundated with messages telling us that the only rape victim is the person who screams and fights the whole time. Just looking around Pandy's it's obvious how many of us question whether what was done to us was assault. I'm so thankful for this site and all of the people on here who validate each other. 

[3kidsandaheadache]

On 10/7/2018 at 10:53 AM, Guest questioning said:

I think I know the answer... but i need to put this somewhere... just get this out of my mind and not all bottled up.   i think this is going to be long and complicated, and for that i am sorry.  

is it rape if we're married but haven't had sex in months... until one night i get fall down drunk (while you're still sober)?  You got on top of me after I had fallen down and started kissing me. when was the last time we kissed?  june? is it rape if i asked you to give me a back rub and then you took it farther (the menthol from the icy hot you used on my back burned once your hands went elsewhere)?  You said we didn't have to do anything if i didn't want to, but every time i tried to sit up, you would pull me back down.  Is it rape if i didn't say no (at least that I remember???)?  If I had an orgasm? If i reminded you to get a condom? If you've been so supportive of my healing process from CSA?  If I got drunk again and the same thing happened the next night?

i think maybe you just didn't know better. We're married after all. I was drunk and should have known better, too.

Is it rape if he doesn't know? Should he have known? Am I just overreacting?

It was rape. I'm so sorry he did those things to you. 

[Guest agurl]

Hello. This is my first post and Im not sure exactly how it all works. Im feeling a little uncomfortable about even talking about it and if I should talk about the person in front of me or the proper ettiquette but im dealing with some stuff and I guess it fits here. My situation I feel like I set myself up. I feel like I should have known better. I try to tell myself it never happened I misunderstood I was to drunk. But for it to cross my mind everyday for the last 8 plus years im just feeling like thats alot for a situation that didnt happen. I wanted to be cool I wanted to impress a guy and I drank way to much I thought we were both drinking but when I took his cup bc I was out I realized it was juice. I was instantly alert to that but I didnt say anything I was scared. I was already to the point of stumbling and falling down. He was a kid of some family my family was friends with. I never expected anything bad. He had been fighting with his gf I thought he was cute. I had my own agenda at first. I wanted to hang out. Then I ended up in a lie of a drinking contest by myself. His gf kept calling I will never forget that. She had a special ringtone he mentioned earlier how oh shes psycho thats only her ringtone ignore it. I was psyshically just done. Thats why I want to believe I misunderstood. To be that drunk and to remember what I do makes no sense. He got on top of me I couldnt do anything I just said no and he put his hand over my mouth and said shh youll like it. He did what he did. Then that ringtone just over and over. I dont remember anything other than that really. I know I wasnt beat. I know I wasnt physically really hurt. I drank and I was attracted to him thats why I even hung out with him. I dont feel like I should have these issues yesrs later. I consider myself to be lucky because I didnt go through what other people have as sick as that sounds. I really tell myself some stuff. I just feel like it should go away or it didnt happen or I asked for it in someway but everytime I start down that path I remember the gut punch i felt when i tasted the juice and I knew something was wrong. He didnt want us on equal playing fields for some reason and I knew he drank I had seen him in plenty of social settings. So if all the stuff I want to feed myself is true then why does that fear stick out so much. I really struggle with calling myself a survivor or victim or anything. When I see psychiatrist I wont talk about. I drop this little bombshell and wont talk about it. I want to discuss all the other issues and if they keep coming back to that I will just quit going. I never spoke his name or saw him again or did anything. I didnt tell anyone for years actually the first time it ever came up is when I was dealing with my drug issues. I went off the deepend bad after that. Truthfully  I look back at that time and I think he made me feel worthless. So I really began to treat myself pretty worthless. I had no self respect after that which is also really contradictory to how I feel like I should have reacted after that situation. And overall with my rant if you cant tell im just struggling. And Im tired. Im so tired of the anxiety and the memories and I really thought it would go away. It wasnt that bad I slept with plenty people all these things i tell myself. And its still in my head everyday and I dont know where it stops or how to go another direction. I can talk about it right now because you all dont know me but looking someone in the eye and saying it. Id rather call myself a liar all day long like I have but its not making anything better. I feel so lost and trapped at the same time. I need help trying to accept or idk what really. 

[Susan]

Hi agurl,

I hope you go ahead and complete your registration. You deserve all the support you can get!

You were already impaired when you drank his juice - he planned it this way except possibly you learning he was only drinking juice. I'm so sorry. None of us really wants to experience the pain from examining the truth of what happened. Sounds like you self medicated with drugs to avoid the pain. You were raped hon. He knew beforehand what he was going to do. Sick bastard angry with girlfriend. I do hope you can discuss this further with your therapist. We're here if you'd like to share with us. You are not alone!

Peace to you,

Susan

[Guest Guest]

Hello. I don't even know if I should be posting this year, but this is something that I am struggling with.

I have experienced CSA, and my ex knew about it. However, he would restrain my hands when he wanted intimacy and I was not able to and then he would tell me I am not good enough because I could not fulfill my duties towards him

[mbholly]

I am sorry you are struggling. Your ex was so wrong to treat you in that way. Feeling a duty for intimacy can be so complicated, but you have a right to your boundaries. You did nothing wrong. I am sorry you were hurt.

[Guest AnnieSweets]

On 6/12/2017 at 11:13 AM, Brehiri said:

If it "only" happened once, it is still rape.

If s/he didn't have a weapon, and you say no, or don't say no, it is still rape.

If s/he didn't hit you or otherwise injure you, it is still rape.

If you are wearing the shortest skirt and the highest heels and s/he has sex with you, and you don't want it, it is still rape.

If you were absolutely butt naked, and s/he has sex with you against your will, it is still rape.

If you consented to sex 100 times, and didn't consent the 101st time, it is still rape.

If you didn't say yes and you didn't say no, it is still rape.

If it "only" happened once, it is still rape.

If you were drunk or high, it is still rape.

If s/he gets you drunk or high and has sex with you, it is still rape.

If you are a prostitute and you say "no", it is still rape.

If you were unconscious  and s/he had sex with you, it is still rape.

If you were sick and didn't have the strength to say no or fight them off, it is still rape.

If you "led him/her on" and you didn't want sex and s/he continues, it is still rape.

If it was anal, vaginal, oral or digital, it is still rape.

If you were a child, it is still rape. A child cannot consent.

If s/he is your spouse, and you didn't want sex, it is still rape.

If it is your wedding night and you don't want to have sex but s/he pressures you anyway, it is still rape.

If you "consented" enthusiastically because you were scared, it is still rape.

If s/he pressured into sex you because s/he spent money on you, it is still rape.

If you were incapacitated in any way and s/he has sex with you, it is still rape.

If you were unable to say "yes" in any way, it is still rape.

If s/he acted in a threatening way and you agreed to sex, it is still rape.

If s/he nagged you until you gave in and said yes, it is still rape.

If s/he talked you into it  and you eventually say yes, it is still rape.

If s/he said "If you loved me you would do it"  or "everyone else is doing it" to manipulate you, it is still rape.

If you had sex because you were scared of what would happen if you didn't, it is still rape.

If you froze, it is still rape.

If s/he keeps waking you up to ask for sex until you give in it is still rape.

If you were asleep and s/he has sex with you, it is still rape.

If you said "yes" to sex with a condom and s/he removes that condom or it breaks and s/he doesn't tell you, and continues, it is still rape.

If you change your mind at any point for any reason, and s/he doesn't back off IMMEDIATELY, it is still rape.

If you consented to one sexual act but not another, and s/he does another act to you or makes you do another act, it is still rape.

If s/he refuses to stop having sex for any reason, it is still rape.

If s/he is your friend, husband, wife, boyfriend or girlfriend and you didn't want sex, it is still rape.

If s/he is your friend with benefits and you didn't want sex, it is still rape.

If you had sex with them the night before, and don't want to again the next morning, and s/he makes you anyway, it is still rape.

If s/he buys you items, dinner or movie tickets, that does not entitle them to sex and if they use that as leverage to manipulate you, it is still rape.

This really connected with me... I need some advice still though if anyone wants to give their honest opinion... If I was the one to initiate kissing but was too drunk to say no to anything else that happened, and they were very drunk too, is it still rape? Am I a bad person that I let this go so far with someone who is supposed to be my best friend and not my significant other? I feel like such a bad person and so trapped by this because I just wish it never happened. I only even remember parts of it and it haunts me... It has been okay for me to kiss my friends while intoxicated before but this... Its so much to handle, it weighs on my every thought and I want to scream but cant. And I still adore my friend, I know they would never want to hurt me. But this still happened. And it wont leave my mind. All in all I'm asking what should I do?

[mbholly]

I am sorry you are going through this. I believe people can not consent to sexual activity when they are drunk. It does seem really complicated though when both people are drunk. Your friend may be regretting this too or also feeling like they didn’t consent. Whatever happened, it does not make you a bad person.

I don’t really know what you should do. You might call a local rape crisis center or use RAINN (they have an online chat) to talk it through. You might talk to your friend about it? They may or may not remember more than you do, but if you think you want the friendship to continue, you will have to address what happened. 

If you finish your registration, you could ask this in another forum and would likely get more input. 

Sending support.

 

 

[Guest constant doubt]

I always felt unsure if what I went through was rape because I wanted him to come over to have sex and during sex I told him to stop because it hurt, and he knew it was my first time and he didn't stop until later, and for the most part I was uncomfortable but I blamed it being my first time. But in the end I though I was okay. I didn't think about it until maybe a couple days later and I was unsure, then I found out he gave me chlamydia, and I don't know if that could have made me alter my perception. This was months ago and it always come back into my head, and I'm in a constant state of anxiety about being so unsure.

[goddessofnight]

Consent can always, always, always be recanted. Just because you said yes once doesn't mean that you don't have the right to change your mind later. If you withdraw your consent, and the other person has sex with you anyway, that is rape. I'm sorry for the issues that this person has caused you. 

[Guest iwannabehappy]

i read this and saw that i was probably raped 

TBH it felt like it was rape, when i told his best friend he said it was but i didn't believe him or even think about it because at the time i loved my boyfriend but after our relationship i was haunted by that one incident and the ones that followed after. 

My sister always said no boys in the house and i didn't listen. we made-out  and i was scared of doing anything sexual but as things got heated he wanted to have sex. i was like i don't really want to do this but then he kinda begs and i said fine but i didn't want it and i wanted to stop in the middle of it but he kept going. I never said stop but it hurt and it was visible because i was showing discomfort . He even commented  about it but never said anything like sorry. After that i was scared to say no completely so any time he asked i would say sure but hesitantly. there were times where we had sex where we both wanted it and it was consensual but after i would think about the times it wasn't. I felt that if i didn't do it he would leave me and i also felt like he could probably shame me, every time we did it it would hurt and i would tell him and he would tell me to get used to it. we ended because he stopped  loving me at some point while i still loved him. He is still out there and im afraid of what he would do to anyone else im thinking about reporting it but im scared ill be turned away or told that this isn't rape. I was 16 and Im now still a minor, i didn't notice that he was narcissistic and lustful just as he was nice. 

I still don't believe it

im sorry to ask but Is it rape?

[Guest Hales13]

I spent 4 years with an ex husband who Constantly nagged and coreced me into having sex. Even to the point where I became an alcoholic from all the drinks he would pour me daily and force me to drink. I say "force" loosely because he wouldn't physically force me, but if I didn't he would berate and scream and complain for hours if I didn't. He had raped me 3 times for sure, where I had blatantly told him no and he kept going. The other times during those four years I was talked into it nearly everytime, afriad to make him upset. Its been a year since i left and I'm still battling with everything inside my head.

[Guest bluebutterfly]

i’m personally a bit confused with my own understanding between rape and sexual assault. i was drunk and drifting off to sleep, but i was still conscious. i was laying on my stomach and shut down and didn’t say no or tell him to stop or anything like that, but i didn’t want it and i didn’t say yes. 

right now it’s just really difficult to try and find the words to explain why i couldn’t speak, or do anything. it happened with an ex boyfriend and things are rocky with my current boyfriend now since i had told him about it. my ex even texted my boyfriend saying i had sex with him, but when my ex texted me saying that same thing i told him i didn’t want it but i shut down and couldn’t say anything. 

this just happened a couple days ago so everything’s still pretty fresh, i made an appointment to meet with a therapist but that’s not for another 22 days so i guess i’m just trying to talk about it and try and figure out where i go from here, since the appointment seems like forever away

[mbholly]

Hi butterfly,

I think the line between sexual assault and rape is really primarily a legal one and so will vary a lot from place to place. Where I live sexual assault crosses the line into rape when penetration (with any part of the body Or with an object) takes place. I don’t know if it is helpful (as it really only matters how you think of it), but since you were drunk/drifting to sleep, didn’t want it, and didn’t say yes I would consider it rape. Sometimes it can help to speak to someone at a rape crisis center about your experience as it can help you clarify things and validate what you went through. 
I am glad you have an upcoming therapy appointment as I am sure that will help. There is lots of support here too. Please consider joining so you will have access to all the forums and resources.

[Guest bluebutterfly]

hi mbholly,

your message was very helpful, thank you for that. i tend to think very analytically and know the kind of resources there are, i just don’t really know how my day to day life looks like going from here on out. it’s pretty scary to be by myself right now, since i really tend to overthink. 

i guess it’s difficult too bc im really not sure what i need at this point. sometimes i feel like just being held would be nice but on the other hand being touched right now can be somewhat triggering. the first time something like this happened to me it felt completely different, and i’m not exactly sure how to cope with everything with my lack of motivation to see how things can ever really get back to normal. 

[blondie2002]

Short on words, but here's  a

[Guest ElleJohn]

It's my first time on this forum, recommended by my therapist. I saw the title of this thread and thought, yup that's the one for me. I know I have to come to a decision within myself as to whether I was raped or not but somehow I keep feeling like I need someone else to tell me yes or no. Like it's not enough to come to that decision on my own for some reason. I think because "rape" when I was growing up meant violence and struggle and saying no. And it was so long ago, almost 30 years now. But I remember it because it was my first time having sex, I was 16.

It was my first boyfriend and we had been together for a couple years. We fooled around a lot and he brought up the idea of sex on multiple occasions and I always said no. This one night we were in a jacuzzi fooling around. He was touching me, as he had many times before, but at some point I realized he had begun penetrating me with his penis, not his fingers. I must have frozen because I know I didn't stop him or say anything. Afterwards, I asked him, did we just have sex? He said yes. I don't remember anything except feeling a sense of relief that I didn't have to say no anymore. It was like, oh okay, that wasn't so bad. Now I can claim not being a virgin. Like it was something to be proud of, like it made me cool or meant that I was attractive enough for someone to have sex with me.

We stayed together and kept having sex and he was a "nice guy" so it never really crossed my mind until much later that it was not consensual and possibly rape. It just wasn't how people thought about rape at the time and I had never been taught anything about consent that I can remember. Anyway, 30 years later and I am trying to figure out if this incident had any part in my various mental health struggles or if it didn't impact me at all. It's very confusing. I always blamed my troubles on my childhood and not having an emotionally supportive father who was explosive and verbally abusive to my mother and brother (not so much me) and an anxious mother. I suppose it is probably all connected but I guess I just feel this need to know if the rape (or whatever it was) caused any of my subsequent behavior.

Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this long post. I just needed to share. 

 

[mbholly]

Hi Elle John, 

It really does matter most how you view what happened, but,if it is any help, I would consider what you went through as rape. I also froze during my rape. It was terrifying and I literally did not move. I am in my 50s and think how society views rape has changed some, but even if back when it happened, others may not have viewed it as rape, you did not consent.

It feels impossible to know how different painful and traumatic experiences contribute to Mental health issues. I do think everything is connected. In my own struggles, I am never sure what role my abusive childhood played and what role later trauma played. In therapy, I get to work on them all.

Sending support,

Mary Beth

[Guest ElleJohn]

Hi Mary Beth,

Thank you so much for your reply. It really helps to hear other people's experiences and just to feel heard. I have talked about this to my therapist but hearing from other survivors is a different kind of therapy. I think you are right, it really only matters how I define it. I definitely did not consent. I think it's confusing for me because I don't recall feeling angry, just surprised by what I thought was happening and then later a sense of relief. And then I stayed with him for awhile after that. The more I learn about trauma though and how our brains protect us, it makes more sense how I reacted. I guess part of me is afraid to allow myself to feel angry because there is nothing I can do about it. He's not around for me to confront and it was so long ago.

I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts.  

Laurie

[Guest julia272]

What if you didn't know what you were consenting to? Can a child rape a child?

[Jenny]

23 hours ago, Guest julia272 said:

What if you didn't know what you were consenting to? Can a child rape a child?

From a legal perspective, that would depend upon the age the child was at. A younger child cannot consent.

Having been there myself, it is complex - but the experience I had then was that of rape, and it is that experience which we can - with time - gradually heal from.

I do not hold the other children guilty - I suspect there was re-enactment going on on their part, making them as much victim as me.

Take gentle care,

Jenny

[Guest Repressedx100]

I was 13 years old at the drive in when my sisters ex drunk boyfriend wondered into our car.  He asked me to help him find his car I thought he was cute and funny so I agreed.  I walked him to his car he asked if I would sit with him for a bit I agreed.  He started to kiss me then he shoved his penis in my hand it was wet and gross I pulled my hand away he grabbed it back and held it on there stroking himself with my hand.  I kept telling him this was not right we should stop he is my sisters ex boyfriend he kept pushing somewhere along the way I ended up laying on my back in a car with this boy on top of me not listening to my requests to stop.  I started to look out the window in hopes someone would look at me so many ppl standing around a guy in the front seat hearing me say no!  I could feel him inside me through my underwear and shorts!  My sister came looking for me the guy in the front said your sister is having fun leave her alone!  She never looked in the back seat I was looking at her she never looked at me!   I told my friends they said I was over reacting and blowing it out of proportion and the first boyfriend I had said it was not rape!   I had a mans penis shoved into me through my clothes it felt like rape!  I can not say this persons name I could not deal with bodily fluids never knew why till now! It has been 30 years since that happened to me and I repressed those memories like a champ slept with my first real boyfriend 6 months later!  I slept around till I met my husband who never once crossed any line and I spent hours alone with him!  I am struggling friends I still feel like I am wrong guilty shame why is this still here!  I am finding anger now but mixed with shame!  God blessed me with an awesome husband who has helped me heal from the different SA’s I experienced.   The 1 in 4 1 in 3 is a lie every single friend I have has been sexually assaulted!   I was sexually assaulted by 3 different ppl before the age of 13 and had at least a dozen more incidents since!  What did you think was going to happen is my favorite question it truly makes you feel like the dumbest person on earth!  

[Hope]

This was not your fault at all, Repressed. I'm so sorry he raped you and no one helped your during or after the trauma. I would agree that the statistics seem to be off sometimes based on so, so many people experiencing sexual assault and abuse. Most of us don't remember or can't tell anyone for numerous reasons so we would not even be included in the actual numbers.  It's how we survive. 

I was able to repress my worst memories for over 20 years.  I completely understand. 

I'm so glad you have a wonderful and supportive husband. That's how you deserve to be treated. 

- Hope

[Guest Repressedx100]

Thank you Hope I need this right now,  I tried to find a support group in my area but nothing close enough.  I found this by researching and due to some new memories coming back I feel like it is time to shake the tree and see what else falls!  There is one memory I am struggling hard with I remember bits and pieces but the moment I felt violated what happened I can not recall I remember moments before moments after the extreme emotions I felt but can not remember what happened exactly!   I remember asking the step kids of this man if he hurt them they said no!  I made the judgment to not say anything because they were happy in their new family!  I need this memory to come through because it was my first I think ? I was very young 8-10 I want to say!  Did you ever have a repressed memory that you could almost feel the pain the memory was so intense but not be able to remember the moment your world fractured?  Do you have any suggestions?  Thanks again for being part of my journey!